Conversations with a national socialist
Thursday, March 02, 2006
I was surfing the art site that I'm a member of, and I came across some Nazi-related artwork. I sent the following message to the artist, purely out of curiousity. What follows is my discussion with him. I won't comment on it: take whatever you want from it.
Deviant: ~firework101 (#226704794)
Date: Feb 25, 2006, 4:08:09 PM
don't you think it might be easier to get a clear audience if you don't distance the majority of them by using the symbol that they associate with hate?
I know that the swastika is thousands of years old, and originally symbolised prosperity (etc), but a symbols meaning is only as good as how its perceived by the majority of people. These days, the peaceful meaning behind the swastika has been lost (to most people) and will probably never come back. The images of Kristallnacht (pardon my probably mis-spelling of the german) and the ghettos and the hate behind it all are what people see now. Stagnation leads to failure, Hitler knew that, and he was about change.
Just to be clear, I don't agree with your beliefs, but I think you have the right to speak them. Even if, as you say, the gassing of millions of people is a lie (as you say, which I don't agree with), the Nazis did a lot of horrible things. The photos and films of the liberations of the camps show what happened to those who survived, even if we ignore the deaths.
Although you may not be anti-semitic, there is some evidence of anti-semitism playing a large role in Nazism (to differentiate it from your new-world national socialism). The propaganda posters blasting jews, as well as the school books, are early examples of this. The laws limiting Jewish freedoms is more. The 'final solution', which was planned out and drafted on paper, is again further evidence. Or is all this a lie?
As for your analogy with christianity, the difference is that they burned heretics hundreds of years ago. The anti-semitic ideas (and memories) of nazism are only 60-odd years old. Unfortunately (for you) it's something that's closely associated with the swastika and what it stands for.
Also, since the swastika is originally from the far east (as a symbol for Hinduism and Buddhism, among others), don't you think the adoption of it for your cause is a form of multi-culturism?
Also, I'm curious, how did you come to believe in national socialism? Is it something you grew up with or ideals that you adopted later in life? Are you German or do you have German roots? How old are you, and how long have you held these beliefs?
Deviant: ~illusions667 (#226759805)
Date: Feb 25, 2006, 6:50:26 PM
don't you think it might be easier to get a clear audience if you don't distance the majority of them by using the symbol that they associate with hate?
Well.... by still using the old symbols, we have two advantages :
- we're noticed more easily.
- it seperates the narrowminded from the openminded. Only those openminded enough will approach us. Currently this may be more efficient, since the movement mostly needs intelligent and skillful leaders.
These days, the peaceful meaning behind the swastika has been lost (to most people) and will probably never come back.
You overestimate the memory of the masses. By means of proper education and the coming of new generations, it is possible to give the swastika its positive meaning throughout mankind again.
The images of Kristallnacht (pardon my probably mis-spelling of the german) and the ghettos and the hate behind it all are what people see now.
Once the understand how the influence of powerful zionists/jews had hurt German interests, they can understand the situation. They just need to look at Israel and zionist influence in the US to get an idea of how jewish influence had hurt that country.
I am not an anti-semite, because I do not generalise the behavior of elements within the jewish community and blame them on all jews. There definitely are many good and decent jews out there who do not harm anyone, but I am not blind to the fact that the overall jewish influence in most societies remains very negative. Do you really think that jews were persecuted that often by that many different peoples just, without any provocation?!
the Nazis did a lot of horrible things.
The allies and Sovjets were far worse than anything the Germans did during the war. It's just a fact that history is always told in the point of view of those who won the war, demonising the loser and glorifying the winner.
The photos and films of the liberations of the camps show what happened to those who survived
The only thing it shows, is that they suffered from disease and undernourishment. The same happened with German prisoners in American camps AFTER the war had already ended. Many tens of thousands of German soldiers lost their lived in these camps, with some sources claiming a death toll of around one million. Rarely are these casualties ever mentionned.
Although you may not be anti-semitic, there is some evidence of anti-semitism playing a large role in Nazism (to differentiate it from your new-world national socialism). The propaganda posters blasting jews, as well as the school books, are early examples of this. The laws limiting Jewish freedoms is more.
Like I said, national socialism is basically unrelated to anti-semitism. The anti-semitism of those days is merely a reaction of the negative jewish influence in the world, which cannot be denied. Many of the ideas national socialism promotes, are opposite to the ideas jews had promoted.
The 'final solution', which was planned out and drafted on paper, is again further evidence.
The final solution, as it has been written down in the so-called "Wannsee Protocols", deals with a forced migration plan for all jews. It doesn't mention killing jews AT ALL.
As for your analogy with christianity, the difference is that they burned heretics hundreds of years ago. The anti-semitic ideas (and memories) of nazism are only 60-odd years old.
It may take some time for national socialism to rise again, I agree to that. That doesn't mean it's hopeless for me to start aiding in that progress.
Also, since the swastika is originally from the far east (as a symbol for Hinduism and Buddhism, among others), don't you think the adoption of it for your cause is a form of multi-culturism?
The swastika is not orriginally from the far east. It has been used for thousands of years in many different cultures, of which Buddhist and Hindu culture are only two. Hitler was inspired by the swastika of the vikings and the Teutonic knights.
Some national socialists believe that the swastika orriginated as an Aryan symbol, by the way. They believe that it were ancient Aryans who cultivated India and China, as well as Egypt and certain other cultures. While this theory is highly contested, European (blonde & red-haired) mummies from thousands of years ago that were found in China seem to give this theory some credibility. Other elements that support it, are the fact that the upper castes in India have a lighter skin (and sometimes blue eyes), the fact that Indian languages and Europeans languages have a common origin and claims in ancient mythology of European-looking "gods" visiting non-European territories.
People in the NSDAP party believed so strongly in this theory, that they sent research teams to very remote locations (eg. Tibet) to find evidence that supports it.
I'm curious, how did you come to believe in national socialism? Is it something you grew up with or ideals that you adopted later in life? Are you German or do you have German roots? How old are you, and how long have you held these beliefs?
I've been living in Flanders for my entire life. Flanders is the Dutch-speaking half of Belgium. During WW2, there was a significant nationalist movement that supported the German occupiers, because they believed that the Germans would better serve the interests of the Flemish people than the Walloon (French-speaking Belgians) people. Walloons had oppressed my people since my country was created in 1830.
As soon I was able to understand anything about history or politics, I was told that the NS regime was evil and all the other crap we are taught to believe. At the age of 10, my grandmother told me a story about the war and the German occupation. She told me that she used to smuggle butter and that the house where she had been living in for her entire life was occupied by German troops during the occupation. She told me that her boyfriend (who later became my grandfather) had to hide from the Germans so he did not have to work for them. She told me that after the 'liberation' of my country, her house had housed Brittish troops, etc. She never was a sympathiser for the NS regime (on the contrary). But when I asked her about the soldiers who stayed at her home she told me that the German soldiers were very nice and polite young men, that the English soldiers were scary. I was shocked to hear that the soldiers who 'liberated' us were called pig and that she taught the German soldiers were very nice and polite young men. Her explanation was that they had nothing to do with the war but following orders and that they couldn't help what their leaders were doing. Still, it made me wonder. I remained however convinced that the German command was evil, that they wanted to murder all jews, etc...
At about the age of 17, I started to reject dogmatic thinking. The first thing I did was rejecting Christianity. Today, I consider my beliefs to be the largest common divider of the traditional Western and Eastern beliefs : Wotanism (or Asatru), Druidism, Buddhism and Shintoism. My beliefs are also related to the teachings of Crowley and LaVey, but they lack the antropocentrism and are somewhat more peaceful. It has been quite an evolution to come this far though, into finding my own idea of spirituality.
My political convictions also knew an evolution. At first I called myself an anarchist. I however started to realize after quite a while that anarchism was very unrealistic. So I turned to anarcho-capitalism.
Also at the age of 17, I started doing reasearch on the ultra-right and racism. I had read in a paper that there were so many racist websites and I wanted to find out whether or not this was true. I stumbled on a few marginal KKK sites and later onto the Stormfront site. From that moment on, I spent many hours in doing research on the beliefs of racist and the ultra-right. I did not understand their motives, their ideals, etc. After many discussions with this kind of people and many hours reading their material, I started to realize that they made more sense than I'd ever imagined. Still, I was not tempted to follow them and call myself a ultra-right.
Years passed. My interest on the ultra-right was deminished, but my belief in anarchism was slowly fading away and I grew more and more right wing, without realizing it. Then I watched the entire 'Band of Brothers' series with a friend of mine. The last episode featured a speech of a German general to his troops, and that made a huge impression on me. That same question I asked when I was a kid came into my mind. How can a person like that be such an evil monster. Again I started doing some research on the ultra-right and more specifically on pre-1945 National Socialism. And in time, I realized that I had been fooled all the time. And in time I also realized that their ideology made much more sense than my own at that time. It was quite a tough decision to make, but at a certain moment I made the shift. From that moment, I was no longer an anarchist or anarcho-capitalist but a national socialist. That was about two years ago. I'm 24 now.
Deviant: ~firework101 (#226774338)
Date: Feb 25, 2006, 7:31:16 PM
My research isn't nearly as complete as yours, so I'm going to withdraw from the discussion after this message, but thank you for your frank and interesting information. I'm from Holland, so my grandparents told me similar stories to yours. The 'Nazis' weren't evil, I know that. The soldiers were for the most part young men, like you and I. I also saw Band of Brothers, and I found that final scene very moving. It seemed so out of character for an American show to show the Germans as people, but they did it and I respect that.
Despite your arguments, I cannot agree with your anti-multiculturalism stance. I grew up in Portugal, and went to an international school, and I value everything that I've gained from growing up around such a variety of peoples.
I believe the Holocaust happened. Even if there was no specific gassing (although I believe there was), I think the attitude behind discriminating against people simple because of their roots is inexcusable. Even if, as you say, the programmed killing of millions of people (jews as well as other 'undesirables'), the discrimination in itself is horrible enough to earn the term 'holocaust'. I know that the Americans and Soviets did also have camps during the war, where they imprisoned Germans and their allies and subjected them to horrifying environments and experiences. This was, however, in a time of war, and the people they imprisoned were enemies. The imprisonment of Germans who lived in America and Britain (and other countries) is inexcusable as well. However, you argue that the treatment of Jews is nearly justified because the Allies treated their enemies in similar ways. I don't think that that makes it right. That sort of inhumane treatment is wrong, whoever practices it. I know that the Allies were not the 'good guys' that history makes them out to be.
I do, however have one final question. I accept that there might be very little documented historical evidence supporting the machinised slaughter of 12 million people, and that may be cause for doubt that it happened at all. But what do you say to the many witnesses who speak of seeing these 'alleged' events taking place? To the people who went home after the war without any of the family that they had at the beginning? Do you, like some others, really believe in a massive conspiracy? If you do, what is the evidence is there to support it?
Where there any Nazis who confessed to crimes againts humanity afterwards? I don't know, please let me know if that is the case, and if they did, why would they lie?
I'm not attacking you or pushing an agenda: I'm genuinely interested in your beleifs, because I've never really understood them.
Deviant: ~illusions667 (#226903424)
Date: Feb 26, 2006, 2:07:50 AM
I grew up in Portugal, and went to an international school, and I value everything that I've gained from growing up around such a variety of peoples.
I don't have anything against learning from other peoples. In fact, I myself will be staying for 3 months in Poland in a few months, by means of an internship program. I'm also fashinated by certain cultures such as Japanese and Indian culture.
The reason why I'm against multi-culturalism, is because uni-culturalism provides much greater unity in a community due to a shared cultural and genetic heritage and because cultures that are different from one another on important moral issues are incompatible, inherently leading to conflict when both are prominent in one specific area.
I believe the Holocaust happened. Even if there was no specific gassing (although I believe there was), I think the attitude behind discriminating against people simple because of their roots is inexcusable. Even if, as you say, the programmed killing of millions of people (jews as well as other 'undesirables'), the discrimination in itself is horrible enough to earn the term 'holocaust'.
It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that none of the so-called homocidal gas chambers were used to kill people. This is all truely propaganda.
The reason why jews were discriminated prior to 1939 (they were NOT put into concentration camps before the war) was the result of the fact that jewish influence in Germany had become that harmful and great, that there seemed no other option than completely freeing the German people of it. After all, the reason for this problem, is the fact that German and jewish culture are incompatible.
I do believe it was wrong to teach the German people to hate all jews. I do believe it's wrong to teach the German people that jews are born as degenerate an immoral beings. I do, however, agree that ridding Germany of jewish influence was necessary.
Jews were put into concentration camps since 1939 because Hitler feared that the jewish population would not be loyal to Germany in a time of war (Hitler was convinced that the jewish community was responsible for the English declaration of war against Germany, which is not entirely untrue). Roosevelt did the exact same thing with Japanese-Americans in the US. The reason for these camps has nothing to do with killing people, but only with providing security for the state.
The treatment of the jews back then was not nearly bad enough to be referred to as a "holocaust". In fact, German prisoners in certain Russian prison camps were treated far worse.
The term "holocaust" refers to "a massive slaughter by fire", by the way. The real "holocausts" that took place at that time were not caused by the Germans or the Russians, but by the English and the Americans. I speak of the bombing of Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki and Hirohima. Hundreds of thousands of people lost their lives in the most horrifying ways, due to those bombings. Most of these people were civilians. None of the targets were military targets.
I know that the Americans and Soviets did also have camps during the war, where they imprisoned Germans and their allies and subjected them to horrifying environments and experiences.
Actually, more Germans were imprisoned by the Americans and Russians AFTER the war, than during the war. Some were imprisoned only because of their beliefs or their nationallity, especially in the East.
This was, however, in a time of war, and the people they imprisoned were enemies.
That's also what the German concentration camps were for : to imprison enemies during wartime. It is true that some political prisoners were also sent to concentration camps before the war in Germany, but this is due to the fact that German had just come out of a revolution. Such conditions are comparable with those of war, in certain aspects.
However, you argue that the treatment of Jews is nearly justified because the Allies treated their enemies in similar ways. I don't think that that makes it right. That sort of inhumane treatment is wrong, whoever practices it.
My point was that prison camps are normal in wartime, because a nation needs extra protection. If I have to choose between locking up potential threats to the state and losing a war, I'd definitely pick the first.
The German prison camps were far from inhumane, by the way. Unfortunately, near the end of the war, the allies had destroyed many supply lines that went to the concentration camps, causing lack of food and medicine. Before that, however, the conditions were pretty good for a prison camp.
I accept that there might be very little documented historical evidence supporting the machinised slaughter of 12 million people, and that may be cause for doubt that it happened at all.
The documented historical evidence clearly proves that the machinised slaughter of 12 million people did not occur. There really is not doubt at all. That's why historians are not allowed to question the official story in some countries. The promoters of the official "holocaust" theory know that they evidence is not on their side.
But what do you say to the many witnesses who speak of seeing these 'alleged' events taking place?
Name me one credible witness whoes claims are in contradiction of revisionist history.
Do you, like some others, really believe in a massive conspiracy?
There is a top level conspiracy, run by very powerful people. Have you ever heard of the so-called "New World Order"?!
Most of the so-called survivors just don't know any better, though. They saw people being devided into different groups when they arrived in the concentration camps, and they just assumed the others were killed because they never saw them again and they've been told the Germans killed them. What they never even considered, was the fact that these people were just sent to another camp or another part of the camp. The graphic novel "Maus" (by a son of a former jewish Auschwitz inmate) clearly illustrates how a man got seperated from his wife in one of those selections, with his wife ending up in Birkenau and he in Auschwitz. During their stay in these camps, there were never allowed to see each other. This is just one of the many aspects where many people just assume that systematic murder was involved because that's what they've been told, while they ignore other plausible explanations.
If you do, what is the evidence is there to support it?
I suggest you start googling with the term "New World Order".
Where there any Nazis who confessed to crimes againts humanity afterwards? I don't know, please let me know if that is the case, and if they did, why would they lie?
There are some who "confessed", after being tortured or threatened. Not everyone can withstand such treatment. Most people who could have known about what happened in the concentration camps stayed with their claims that there never was such an extermination plan, though.
I'm not attacking you or pushing an agenda: I'm genuinely interested in your beleifs, because I've never really understood them.
I encourage you to read [link] . This is the one of the few modern organisations that I know of to stick very close to Hitler's orriginal ideas. Of course, you could also try to find a copy of Mein Kampf or Der Mythus Den 20. Jahrhunderts. Those are books you should have read to be able to fully understand national socialist theory.
you're that much closer to knowing me.
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